Together with Franz Beckenbauer, the trio of Uli Hoeneß, Paul Breitner and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge were part of the most successful Bayern generation to date. For them, the Kaiser was a leader, a role model, but above all a friend. In an interview with club members’ magazine ‘51’, the three legends look back on Beckenbauer’s life.
Interview with Paul Breitner, Uli Hoeneß and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
How are you feeling now that you have some time to reflect on the news of Franz Beckenbauer's death?
Uli Hoeneß: “I'll never forget when my phone rang. Heidi Beckenbauer was on the line to tell me and then I said: 'My condolences, but unfortunately I can't keep talking now. I'll call you back tomorrow’. We all knew that Franz wasn’t well, but the fact that it happened so quickly was a terrible shock.”
Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: “The three of us visited him regularly in Salzburg, ate with him and talked about old times. You could always see the sparkle in his eyes. It did him some good. We had actually wanted to visit him again in the autumn, but unfortunately it wasn't possible by then. When the moment came... Wow… It was devastating. We would’ve liked to say goodbye to him, but unfortunately we ran out of time in the end.”
Paul Breitner: “The last time we were with him, we’d hoped that we would continue these visits a few more times. It wasn’t to be. Franz leaves behind an emptiness that we will always feel. There's a saying that you shouldn't speak ill of the dead - we wouldn't be able to think of anything anyway.”
How comforting is it to think that Beckenbauer always believed that death is just a stage in life?
Breitner: “If he believed that, it's certainly a nice, comforting thought.”
Rummenigge: “He told us that he believed that the soul travels after death. He didn't know where to, but I like the idea that he is still with us.”
Hoeneß: “Franz was a relatively devout person and lived by his faith. We didn't talk about this topic very often, it's something everyone has to work out for themselves. It's hard to imagine that he's no longer here. For me, he lives on in our memories, which is the same for all three of us and many other people. That's how he remains.”
What did you learn from him?
Hoeneß: “In Franz's case, everyone has always attributed everything to his talent, but this characterisation is not accurate. He was quick, good with his head, strong in tackles - he worked on that every day. And when we talk about the origin of our 'Mia san mia', we end up with him. Franz established this self-image at FC Bayern, not because it was constantly reflected on in some writings, but because he exemplified it through the way he acted on and off the pitch and always gave his all as a role model, without saying much about it. These characteristics have characterised FC Bayern for over 50 years. Franz was the first to embody 'Mia san mia', and that is also the obligation of all subsequent Bayern generations. Always believing in yourself, being strong and down-to-earth at the same time, always wanting to win, and staying true to yourself.”
Breitner: “Franz always wanted to win, had to win. His desire to always win is now the centre of ‘Mia san mia’. Franz brought the awareness to this club that you have to win every game from now on when you sign a contract, because there's someone out there on the pitch who exemplifies that. If we were behind in the 70th or 80th minute, he stopped floating. Then he released the devil-may-care attitude of having to win. As an 18-year-old, I was able to learn alongside him how a game works, I studied him, how he organised everything through his movements alone. And I learned from him how to lead people, not with ‘blah blah blah’ and hypocritical pats on the back, but by leading the way in difficult situations. When everyone thinks it's over, you have to put in another three or four sprints. That way, you can get the others to go with you without any fuss. And it's best to take responsibility for yourself and be hard on yourself first before you start on the others.”
Rummenigge: “Before my first training session, I introduced myself: 'Mr Beckenbauer, I'm new here and my name is Karl-Heinz Rummenigge'. He just said: 'I'm Franz'. At first, I just watched and listened like an apprentice. I had to take in everything that was happening around me and I learned from Franz how to make it easy for others to find their way in a new world.”
Every person was equal for Beckenbauer.
Hoeneß: “Franz never forgot where he came from. He wasn't a guy who fawned upon those above and looked down on those below, but the other way round. He defended the little people and attacked the big ones. If someone was in trouble, he was the first to help. When Gerd Müller came back from America and needed support, Franz said to me: 'Uli, we have to help him’. The fact that we got Gerd back on his feet was thanks to Franz, who took the initiative.”
Breitner: “For me, Franz is the first and still the best example of what a truly great person is. A truly great person doesn't let it be known that he's a great person. Incidentally, that's also something he implemented at FC Bayern. You have to have skills here and be aware of those skills, but it's about FC Bayern and about winning. When you play here, you no longer need to make yourself important. It's all about giving everything you've got. Franz exemplified that by never playing down to us as the greatest with his greatness.”
Hoeneß: “Franz had a certain nonchalance, an outrageous talent, but that was paired with tremendous diligence. People always thought, well, everything will come to him. But Franz was always the last one to leave Säbener Straße in the evening, after he'd had a long massage from our masseur Josip Saric, back then with soap. He looked after his body. That's why he was able to perform at his best for so long.”
What was your experience of the aura that many perceived in Beckenbauer?
Breitner: “We played football together, got down in the dirt with each other. We didn't worry about an aura. But of course, the three of us were always in awe, always respectful. For us, he was the great footballer, and a person we got to know. We developed a mutual understanding and acceptance. We had the odd argument, but that never put a strain on our relationship.”
Rummenigge: “Franz Beckenbauer is one of a kind. There’s no one else like him. Today we would say he was diverse, because he stood for everyone. Franz was global and diverse. He grew up in the post-war period and was the best street footballer ever born in Germany. What he did with everything that life threw at him is unique. Even after his playing career, he succeeded in everything, especially in 2006 when he brought the World Cup to Germany. That was his greatest achievement.”
Hoeneß: “There were two Franz Beckenbauers. The one we knew as a teammate, a comrade, a friend and later as a colleague on the board. He always remained the boy who grew up in Giesing who went out into the world and regarded everyone as his equal. But if you turned up anywhere with him, you could feel this awe everywhere. ‘Beckenbauer is here, Beckenbauer!’ And that led to some people seeing this aura around him. He was courted and respected all over the world, which gave Germany this unique 2006 World Cup, and that was the other Franz Beckenbauer, who was identical to the one we knew, just from a different perspective. He never changed, that was a gift.”
What was he like in training?
Rummenigge: “At the start of every season, we always had a Cooper test. Run at least 2,800 metres in 12 minutes. We needed a telescope for Jupp Kapellmann, who managed 3,600. Gerd Müller was ready for the oxygen bottle after 1,800 metres, and Franz always tried to pull him along. Franz was in top shape, not a milligram overweight. That was no coincidence, he was extremely professional. I have to add about Uli that he was the last one in the changing room out of courtesy. He always waited until everyone else had been massaged.”
Was it even possible to please him as a teammate?
Hoeneß: “There was some pressure from him…”
Breitner: “The second worst thing for Franz during a game was that we might lose it. That's why we didn't lose often, because he always fought against it. But the worst thing for him was one of his own mistakes. An own goal, a bad pass, some technical gaffe that he made – it was unbearable for him. He had the idea that he had to play a perfect game for 90 minutes, without the slightest mistake. And if something didn't quite work out... I’d hear him grumbling to himself at close quarters. He wasn't at 180, he was at 1,800.”
Rummenigge: “He wanted to win. Franz had Brazilian technique with a German mindset – a wonderful combination. He didn't get carried away with himself, but combined the quality that God gave him with efficiency. He would stroll through midfield, nobody could stop him, and as soon as he was 30 metres from the opponent's goal, it was red alert because he played a one-two with Gerd that is still unrivalled in its perfection today. Sometimes not just once, but two or three times, tap, tap, tap. And then Gerd was in front of the goal and put it in.”
There’s the famous moment after the 1990 World Cup final when Beckenbauer walked alone across the pitch. What did you make of that?
Breitner: "As a sportsperson, you experience moments of happiness in absolute success. I have a favourite word: ecstasy. When Usain Bolt crosses the finish line in first place or a skier sees the 1 light up on the display at the bottom and knows he's the Olympic champion. Or when the referee blows the final whistle in the World Cup final - I almost exploded with joy. It takes 15-20 seconds, then you realise what you've just achieved. That's how I saw Franz on the pitch back then. He deliberately left the triumph to the team and soaked up everything around him so that he could recall it later in his head. I think that was one of the perfect moments of his life for him.”
Rummenigge: “There are coaches who just dive into the hustle and bustle. Franz is the opposite. He walked across the pitch alone in the semi-darkness, and I think he had the deepest feelings of happiness in him at that moment. He enjoyed it just for himself. In Mexico in 1986, he was happy that we'd even made it to the final. When he made it in 1990, he had proved it to himself once again. It is one of the most sublime, classiest moments in German football history.”
Hoeneß: “I think this moment is also evidence of Franz's ambition. He had won everything as a player and then risked his image as team manager. It was not the perfect tournament for him in 1986. In 1990, he was at peace with himself. He had shown himself: I can also be a coach. I'll forever cherish that moment of silence in absolute perfection on that unique night in Rome. A picture for the gods.”
Rummenigge: “Four days after the final, I was at a charity match with him. People would have loved to throw themselves on their knees in front of him out of gratitude. I thought, now he can finally walk on water [smiles].”
What does Beckenbauer leave you with?
Hoeneß: “I find myself thinking about him very often. Rarely has a friend's death affected me as much as Franz's, because he gave so much for all of us, for this club that we all love. And as Paul said, in the beginning he was certainly a little sceptical of us younger people who now wanted to turn the club upside down. But we became friends, he sought out our closeness and our conversations, he called us often. He will always be an incomparable person to me.”
Rummenigge: “Franz was simply a good guy, a person you wanted to be with. That will always remain. I'm still sad weeks after his death. I've never experienced something like this before.”
Breitner: “As long as I live, I will always be very, very grateful. Together with Gerd Müller, Franz played a leading role in shaping my life in such a way that it has become a life motorway. It was a path that wasn't the worst. Unforgettable."
© Photos: Magdalena Jooss
You can read the extended interview in the latest issue of FC Bayern club members’ magazine ‘51’
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