Interview with Karl-Heinz Rummenigge on his 70th birthday: Philosophy doesn't come with a price tag

He made history with FC Bayern both as a player and as a decision-maker: on the occasion of his 70th birthday, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge chatted to the members' magazine '51' about the club's Munich DNA, the value of having a conflict culture - and negotiations that don't leave a square centimetre to chance.

The Interview with Karl-Heinz Rummenigge

Herr Rummenigge, let's take a trip back to your time as a footballer to celebrate your milestone. Could you still compete at the top level today?
(chuckles) "The talent that the good Lord gave me - pace, dribbling skills, goal-scoring ability - these are qualities that are still in demand today. Our coach at the time, Dettmar Cramer, worked meticulously with me to develop these skills, for which I am still very grateful to him today. So yes, I could probably still compete."

If you were put into a team like Manchester City or FC Bayern today - what role would you play?
"First of all: no other club, just FC Bayern, please (laughs)! I also played for Inter Milan and, at the end, in Geneva - but FC Bayern is and remains the club closest to my heart. Tactically, I played mostly as a number ten, with classic centre-forwards in front of me - Gerd Müller or Dieter Hoeneß at Bayern, Klaus Fischer or Horst Hrubesch in the national team. I loved it when I could play to my strengths, attacking more from midfield. I'd still prefer that role today."

But the tactics back then were completely different.
"Back then, man-marking was strictly enforced. As the saying for defenders went: 'Follow the striker to the toilet even during the half-time break.' Your opponent would snap at your heels for 90 minutes - players like Karlheinz Förster or Hans-Peter Briegel, the 'Walz aus der Pfalz', or steamroller from the Palatinate, were not pleasant companions. Today, we play more with a zonal defence, which opens up much more space for creative players like Jamal Musiala or Michael Olise. They can play in different spaces and develop in a completely different way."

What makes a complete striker today?
"Today, as in the past, you need one thing above all: pace. We used to have the classic playmaker, but he hardly exists anymore. What we need today is fast, vertical passing. Take the time at FC Bayern with Franck Ribéry and Arjen Robben, for example. We were so effective: David Alaba would play a long pass to the wings, Ribéry or Robben would go one-on-one - and we would then immediately create a goal threat. Every opponent would find themselves in trouble, even Barcelona, who had long set the standard in terms of playing back then. This DNA characterises FC Bayern to this day."

Back then, FC Bayern established its playing philosophy.
"Exactly. What's interesting today is that the right winger used to be a right-footer and the left winger a left-footer. Today it's usually the other way round. Louis van Gaal introduced that with us. In the past, the job of a winger was to hog the touchline, play in the cross - and Gerd Müller would be in the centre. These days, they cut inside, dribble into space, finish themselves or set someone up. In that respect, I already see Olise as one of the best in Europe. Players like him have exactly the attributes we need: fast, a strong dribbler, capable of scoring goals. Luis Díaz also ticks all the boxes."  

Karl-Heinz Rummenigge with Musiala at number ten - with Ribéry, Robben, Olise or Díaz on the wings and Harry Kane up front - that would work, wouldn't it?
"I would definitely enjoy that, yes (laughs). Under coaches like Cramer or later Pál Csernai, we didn't play dominant football, but instead backed off a bit and specialised in counter-attacks. It often happened quickly via Paul Breitner, who always looked for me right away, and once I had half a yard's head start, I was almost impossible to catch. That made it really difficult for defenders."

What did you learn during your playing career for life afterwards?
"As a player, you have to function as part of a team, but at the same time go your own way and make decisions. That often helped me later on in discussions and negotiations. You have to stand up for your interests and not shy away from conflict. Today, we no longer have a conflict culture in our entire society. My friend Uli Hoeneß can hardly say anything critical without it immediately being used against him. We need honesty and plain speaking - only those who speak the truth can change things."

You shaped football not only as a player, but also as a decision-maker.
"My first career as a player was above all about one thing: joy - I was very lucky. If you have the necessary talent, football is simply fantastic: you play, score goals in front of 70,000 people, nothing can beat that. My subsequent career was much more demanding. When I started out as vice-president of FC Bayern in 1991, I had a lot to learn. Fortunately, the club had a stable management structure with Franz Beckenbauer, Uli Hoeneß and Karl Hopfner. This allowed me to develop and expand my network - which I had developed primarily through my time in Italy. A milestone later on was the founding of the ECA,  the European Club Association with Michel Platini. That was a game changer for European club football."

Has your view on football changed over time?
"To this day, I still look at football in the same way as I did when I was CEO. Basically, I see the development of football in a positive light. What strikes me - especially here in Germany - is the permanent negative attitude, this constant complaining. No matter what decisions are made - whether at Bayern or in the national team or anywhere else - you always have to expect a firestorm. I used to get upset about it, but less so now, because unfortunately that's the zeitgeist. I noticed it again on my summer holiday: you hardly find any good news in the media anymore. It's all about criticism, polarisation and polemics. But I'd like to see more constructive reporting again, instead of continuous bashing."

Who did you have to fight the toughest battles with in the past - the media or consultants?
”Consultants, in the sense of management consultants, didn’t exist at all in my time. FC Bayern must always have the reins in its own hands. The heart of FC Bayern beats at Säbener Strasse and with the people who work there. The responsibility must lie with the club, with the management, not with external advisors. Bayern always manages things itself: Franz, Uli, Karl Hopfner, myself, now Herbert Hainer and Jan-Christian Dreesen. If you're convinced of an idea, you have to discuss it internally - with the supervisory board, with the club officials - and then implement it. We took on absolute responsibility, even if we made mistakes. You have to correct mistakes, even if you are criticised by the public in one way or another. You just have to put up with it."

And what about players' agents? Are clubs increasingly becoming pawns in the transfer market?
”There's that nice word: No. The clubs must remain in control. Clubs must not be allowed to become the plaything of agents. When in doubt, you have to draw a clear line - and make it very clear to the players: No! This far and not a square centimetre further."

But that's not always easy.
"Of course not. It's unpleasant. But sometimes you have to do just that. Set an example, show clear boundaries. That's leadership quality - even if it's sometimes uncomfortable."

Can FC Bayern even afford to say no? If you don't put in a bid, it's difficult to get top players.
"We must not allow ourselves to become dependent - neither on agents nor on the media or so-called public opinion. FC Bayern has its own philosophy. We will never act like a club like Chelsea, which suddenly had around 45 players under contract - with a personnel budget that we can't afford or don't want. That has never been our approach, and it must not be in the future either. There's no price tag for a club's philosophy - it's priceless. We have to remain authentic, with a clear, credible path. If you let yourself drift, you'll go under at some point. For me, Paris Saint-Germain was a positive example last season. They consistently restructured: away from the superstars and towards young, talented players. Every club in Europe should take a close look at what PSG has achieved. It takes courage - and people who put it into practice, even if you get criticised from time to time."

All of this also requires patience - in building the squad, with transfers.
"Absolutely. We don't need five new players every year. In the past, we only brought in one new player a year and that was enough. At FC Bayern, we have to prioritise our Campus more anyway. I still remember Uli Hoeneß saying at the opening ceremony: 'The Campus is our answer to the transfer madness out there.’ For that's exactly how it should be. Of course you can complete a transfer that costs a lot of money - it was no different in the past. But we also integrated players like Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Müller, Alaba and Badstuber into the team. In the long term, it's the mixture of stability and continuity, with home-grown talent and selective additions of top international players, that leads to success."

Lennart Karl and Tom Bischof are the latest young players to join the team.
"We have to give young players opportunities. The salary structure at the top level of international football is now so high that FC Bayern cannot keep up with it in the long term. So we need a sustainable plan that involves as little risk as possible. There are enough examples of clubs that have thrown themselves into salary and transfer madness, were successful once - and then faced ruin. That must never happen to FC Bayern. I'm not saying that we have to do everything like we used to. But we need a philosophy that is in keeping with the times - and yet remains true to our club spirit. No trophy in the world is worth replacing your philosophy."

How difficult is it to establish yourself as a young player at Bayern?
"I was nervous at first. You come to FC Bayern at 18, suddenly you're playing with guys like Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Müller, Sepp Maier, Uli Hoeneß, Paul Breitner - I just looked up and asked myself: where on earth have you ended up? When I left little Lippstadt for big Munich, many people said I wouldn't get any playing time there. But in my first year, I actually made 28 appearances. The decisive factor was a key moment at a friendly tournament in Huelva in southern Spain."

Please tell us more.
"We came last out of four teams, the atmosphere in the dressing room was pretty heated and our manager Robert Schwan was in full meltdown. Although I hadn't played a minute, I slipped away and only reappeared when things had calmed down again. Schwan grumbled at me: "Where have you been? You can carry all 12 aluminium cases out now!" The other players wanted to help me, but Schwan told them not to. That's how you were brought up as a young player back then. Old school - but instructive. Of course, you couldn't do that today. But it had an effect."

What did that do to you back then?
"I then went to the room I was sharing with Uli and he said to me: 'Don't take it to heart - he's done that to all of us. Just keep giving it your all - he sees something in you, otherwise he wouldn't have had a go at you like that.' That gave me a boost! I then realised: Schwan was a carrot and stick guy - and in the beginning it was almost all stick. I'd like to pass that on to our young talents today: You have to work hard to earn everything as a young player. It's not always easy - but it's valuable."

How difficult is the balancing act between humility and confidence, especially for young players?
”Dettmar Cramer would call me in every day for individual training. Even on a Sunday, he would call me at nine o'clock: ‘See you at the pitch at ten!’ Then the third goalkeeper would join us, a few young players, and then it was all technique, technique, technique training. In terms of fitness, we could compete with the older players - but technically we had to catch up. And I was up for the challenge. I had 12, 13 sessions a week, no-one would believe that today. You can't be a pushover - but above all, you have to have the absolute will to keep improving. That's the be-all and end-all."

What do talented youngsters still need to bring to the table to make it at Bayern?
”No player is the finished product at 18. The boys have to realise that. They need training, and for Hermann Gerland no road was too far. When he constantly stood at the header pendulum with David Alaba, I chuckled at first. But he was right. At 32, Harry Kane doesn't need ten training sessions a week - but an 18-year-old needs them all the more."

When you back young players, you need time.
"Absolutely. And the pressure on a coach at Bayern is enormous. He’s expected to win the league, the cup, the Champions League if possible - and at the same time bring on young players. That's only possible if you support him as a club. And you don't build a young team in one season. Van Gaal was a good example. Not an easy character - but he had the courage to throw players like Badstuber, Alaba and Müller in at the deep end. He started Alaba in the round of 16 at Fiorentina - you need nerves of steel for that. But it worked: We won the league, the cup, and reached the final of the Champions League. So you can also be successful with this philosophy - if everyone is on board and says: ‘We're going down this path’."

What makes you happy today - outside of football?
"A good FC Bayern football match still makes me happy - with the added bonus that we win. But not every win makes me really happy. For me, it's the quality that counts. My old friend Pep Guardiola once said: 'It's not the result that produces the quality, it's the quality that produces the result.' And that sums it up well. Away from the pitch, my family makes me happy. We have five children and now eight grandchildren, and I enjoy spending time with them. Especially with the grandchildren, because I didn't always have enough time as a player and later as a decision-maker. My wife Martina did a terrific job of compensating for that - and I'm now making up for it to some extent."

How much enthusiasm is there for football in the family?
”In the summer, we all got together again on Sylt, and when the weather was fine, we always went to the beach in the afternoon to kick a ball around or play beach volleyball. Sport is still an important part of my lifestyle. You can't do everything like you used to when you're 70. But you can still do it! Health is the most important thing, and that's what I wish for my family on my birthday."

And what do you wish for FC Bayern?
"That we all continue to enjoy FC Bayern, this great club. I spent a long time abroad and can therefore assess it well: This club is exceptional - and is held in extremely high regard internationally. Many people say this is a lucky European club - independent, stable, unique. This independence is a great asset. We don't have an investor who could suddenly pull out and leave a hole. Everything we have - Säbener Straße, the Allianz Arena, the Campus, the team - we've worked for ourselves, financed ourselves. That's something all fans can be proud of. And I hope that this philosophy will endure for a long time to come. FC Bayern is a global role model."